Fun, Freelancing & Finding Balance with Matt Dryzmała

“My therapist would always say, ‘you reacted at that time with these tools that you had at your disposable’. You didn't know how to react any other way to this really bad thing happening… but you taking it seriously because that's all you could do at the time.” - Matt Drzymała

[00:00:05.360] - Lucy Critchley

Life is a series of chapters. Some we write and others are written for us. But what happens when we reach a turning point? Welcome to Untold Chapters with me, Lucy Critchley. In this podcast, we'll explore the real-life stories behind those pivotal moments, the heartbreak, triumphs, and decisions that changed everything. These are the moments that are sent to challenge us, inspire us, and remind us that we're never alone.

[00:00:32.720] - Lucy Critchley

This week on Untold Chapters, I'm joined by Matt Drzymała, a copywriter who turned his career and mindset upside down after realising his work-life balance needed some adjustment. After a breakdown forced him to reassess everything, he made some big changes, choosing clients that sparked joy, setting boundaries that actually worked, and embracing a writing style full of fun and personality. In this conversation, Matt opens up about what it took to redefine success, the power of choosing work that truly fits, and why protecting your well-being is just as important as building a business.

[00:01:13.670] - Lucy Critchley

Hi, Matt. Thanks for joining me on the podcast today.

[00:01:16.420] - Matt Drzymała

Hello.

[00:01:17.170] - Lucy Critchley

The whole idea behind the podcast Untold Chapters is that we are sharing those pivotal moments in our lives where something, I suppose, unexpected happened and it changed things for us. I'd love for you to share yours with us.

[00:01:32.730] - Matt Drzymała

Yeah, sure. My Untold Chapter is my mental health. In 2022, I had a breakdown, a big severe mental breakdown, and that really made me change the way I run my business, the way I work, the niche that I was in, just to protect my mental health, really. But I realised that that was really what I wanted to do, and the work I was doing before then just didn't really resonate with what I wanted to do as a copywriter.

[00:02:01.210] - Matt Drzymała

I was just doing stuff like a lot of us do maybe when we first go freelance, just taking any job, not really working in a niche as such and not really creating content that would get me that work. So I was stuck writing stuff that was okay, I understood it, but I wasn't enjoying the work. And obviously my mental health breakdown made me change direction.

[00:02:27.640] - Lucy Critchley

We obviously know each other outside of this podcast, and I know you as a chatty, funny, copywriter, and it's all about fun. What was it like before? What were you focusing on before?

[00:02:38.750] - Matt Drzymała

I was doing everything.

[00:02:40.600] - Matt Drzymała

I was writing for wedding DJs, sustainability, mental health, which I still do, but I was working a lot writing about mental health. I mean, it could literally... Anything and everything. They were probably the main ones I was writing about at the time, but I literally was just taking on anything.

[00:03:00.350] - Matt Drzymała

Like I say earlier on, a lot of us do. And I think the mental health thing, actually, I actually still love writing about just purely because I have the experience of poor mental health and I'm able to write about it with a lot more experience now.

[00:03:15.990] - Matt Drzymała

But yeah, it just wasn't what I wanted to do, especially finance. Could you write a full website for an accountant? And it's just like, 'This isn't what I want to be doing'. I've worked in finance for years and well, I say I worked in it, I got pushed into it in a job and just hated every second of it.

[00:03:36.180] - Matt Drzymała

Never retained a single piece of it when I left. It was like everything else, some jobs were fine, some jobs were just really boring, I just wasn't enjoying what I was doing. Yeah, I was enjoying working from home, working for myself. But yeah, the type of work, just writing websites or blogs or whatever it might be, just for niches that I just wasn't interested in.

[00:03:56.690] - Matt Drzymała

And I was like, I know when we say, oh, yeah, as a copywriter a lot of the work is research and stuff. And yeah, well, I'm just not enjoying the research either. I was just sat there reading, thinking, I just don't want to be doing this. Why am I reading about accountancy? It wasn't for me.

[00:04:14.220] - Lucy Critchley

I totally get that. I've definitely... This is my longest job ever running my business.

[00:04:20.800] - Matt Drzymała

Same. As we record this, I think maybe a month longer than I did in my longest job. So, yeah, it's I must have a good boss.

[00:04:33.080] - Lucy Critchley

Well, this is it. I think about some clients, and they've not necessarily been a good fit. It does have an effect on your whole mindset as well, doesn't it? As someone who's also experienced mental health issues. I've had a lot of therapy and a lot of family stuff that's meant I've needed that space. I feel like life's too short to work on stuff that doesn't light me up in some way or another.

[00:05:00.720] - Matt Drzymała

Absolutely. Yeah, completely get that.

[00:05:03.080] - Matt Drzymała

It's made such a difference, I think, for me to be able to do my own thing, set my own hours, work when... I've got a daughter and stuff. For me, it's school hours now, but I take Mondays off for me, and that makes such a big difference to my whole mindset. And I know we've talked before about you taking time to go for walks at lunchtime or to watch something funny on the telly while you're having your lunch... Those kind of things. What stuff do you do to help your mindset?

[00:05:40.910] - Matt Drzymała

I try and do 10,000 to 12,000 steps a day. So I go for a walk before I start in the morning because my wife's a teacher, so she's up at half six. Actually, in our parking space where we live, it isn't outside the flat. So in the morning, I tend to leave when she goes to work at like, quarter past seven, walk down where we live to the car, and then I can carry on on my walk, and I'll walk for 40 minutes, and then I'll do it again at the end of the day just to make sure I get my steps in because otherwise you're isolating yourself, you're not getting exercise, and obviously exercise is good for your mental health.

[00:06:15.830] - Matt Drzymała

So I try and do that every day. I always watch something that I love at lunchtime, whether it's a comedy or it could even be something a bit weird. But as long as you're enjoying it, I just try and do something at lunchtime that that's for me and just try and keep it nice and light. I don't watch the news or listen to the news at all.

[00:06:37.710] - Matt Drzymała

I've taken up doing jigsaws and other things like that. I found with my breakdown that I didn't really have any hobbies. I isolated myself really since COVID. I'd stopped doing everything that I love doing. I literally looked at myself when I was really going through some bad mental health. I thought, I don't do anything other than get up, sit at my desk, go to bed. I don't do anything. So I think really in the last few years, I've really tried to escalate the stuff that I do just for myself because I found that really my life was just being lived around my wife, literally whatever she did, I did. And I just wasn't doing my own thing.

[00:07:18.980] - Matt Drzymała

Whereas a few years ago, even when I first started as a freelancer before COVID, I was writing stories. So I would do my own thing. I was writing books. And that all disappeared due to the pandemic. There's many reasons for my mental health issues, but there was a big wow moment, a realisation that, well, I don't do anything.

[00:07:43.230] - Lucy Critchley

Yeah, I can imagine that's such a massive moment. I only found out about the books that you'd written maybe a couple of months ago. So I didn't even... Not that I purport to know everything about you, but I had no idea that that's something that you'd done. Was that at the beginning of like, copywriting?

[00:08:03.250] - Matt Drzymała

It was before I came a copywriter, before I'd even trained to be a copywriter because I did a training course.

[00:08:10.480] - Lucy Critchley

Yeah

[00:08:11.020] - Matt Drzymała

So 2012, I think it was, I did a creative writing course at a local college. And I noticed that over that year that the stories I was writing were getting darker and darker. To the point I was like, I can't write any more dark stuff. Every story someone's getting dismembered. I never wanted to be that writer. So I started writing silly stories just to get out of my head and trying to think of as daft a character as you could and how to explain what the character looked like.

[00:08:49.260] - Matt Drzymała

I remember one. One character was a TV chef, but I explained that his hair rose. He had bouffant hair that rose like sponge.

[00:09:00.080] - Matt Drzymała

I really just love writing these silly things. So I wrote like... They sound like they're kids' stories, but they're not actually aimed at kids. And so I wrote a bunch of stories called the Bumpkinton Tales, which was just a load of daft characters in a village that was in the middle of nowhere, it wasn't really on the map.

[00:09:20.540] - Matt Drzymała

No one really knew what it was. And it just crammed it with loads of weird characters. Some of them had weird names like Artichoke Carruthers and Parsley Sage. So I wrote some short stories, and then I wrote a novel called The Fantastical Gregory Shortbread, which was the novel of these short stories.

[00:09:40.940] - Matt Drzymała

But they were very much just like what I do now, just laid back funny, silly stuff. And I'd love doing it, but obviously since becoming a copywriter, I write all day, and the last thing I want to do at night is write. And I know many copywriters do that, but I just find that I can't sit down and write stories if I'm writing all day for a client. It's just I want to rest my brain from writing.

[00:10:04.370] - Lucy Critchley

Yeah, definitely. And it's a different part of your brain, isn't it? Doing creative things. And if you're creative all day long, it's like a muscle, isn't it? And you got to, you got to rest it. You got to give it that time and whatever it is that you do to wind down, whether that's going on your walks or whether that's... We've talked about how much we both love Taskmaster, whether it's watching something silly like that or whatever that might be, cooking if that's something that you're into. Taking that step away, I always find, not totally focusing on the work stuff or whatever those things might be.

[00:10:40.710] - Matt Drzymała

That's the thing, like you said, there, just watching something like Taskmaster, just something completely bonkers and just funny. You can just lose yourself in. That's totally my sense of humour. So I just try and do stuff for myself. But yeah, even before I'd become a copywriter, that's what I did. And then I trained to be a copywriter because I'd been made redundant with an 18-month notice period because I worked in payroll. You have to outsource it for a year before. Outsource, you've got to do it in-house and outsource for a year. So that's when I thought, I'm never going to get out of payroll if I don't do something about it. And I looked back at my life and thought, What am I good at? What have I actually done?

[00:11:20.630] - Matt Drzymała

And I literally thought, Do you know what? I've written my entire life, I never realised it. I've written match day programme, like football reports for a local non-league team. I'd written fan fiction. I'd done websites. I'd written all the time when I was young. Like a lot of writers do, you just write loads of silly stories. Obviously, I'd done the creative writing course. I'd written books. And still, I was like, 'Oh, yeah, I've written all my life'. So I looked into what could I do as a writer and looked at a few things and copywriting appealed.

[00:11:57.340] - Matt Drzymała

So I did a course and that took another year or so, in which time I would let go from my role and I was still working in payroll in another job. I was getting clients then, working in the evenings and at weekends, and I thought, if I need to do this. And I was made redundant again. This other job went to and luckily, two weeks into my notice period, someone came along and said, 'We need a writer on retainer for this work'. And I thought, 'Well, I can't work and take this job on. Never going to be a better time to go freelance than that'. And that's what I did.

[00:12:30.260] - Lucy Critchley

That's it. Yeah. It's like those redundancies were a sign to go for it.

[00:12:37.380] - Matt Drzymała

I think I was just very flukey because when I was doing... I say very flukey, maybe it was just, again, maybe it was meant to be.

[00:12:42.960] - Matt Drzymała

When I was doing the course, my tutor, he was more into writing about international shipping courier services and stuff. And he had a client that was a wedding DJ but also a web designer. He passed him onto me. I hadn't even passed the course at that point, but he said, 'I think this is perfect for your tone of voice', writing kind of like fun. Even my tutor there obviously saw that in me, but I still didn't see it. I was like, 'I'm writing about wedding DJs'. So for the first year of being a copywriter, all I wrote about was wedding DJs, but I had that guaranteed work. And then they had the odd one that was a tennis club, and a garage somewhere down south of England. But that happened before I'd gone full-time.

[00:13:31.910] - Matt Drzymała

And then again, this job came up and I thought, this is meant to be because every time I think, 'Oh, should I do it?' Something comes up. And that continued into my career as a copywriter, because every time I slowed down in that first year of being freelance, and I thought, do I just need to go and work in a supermarket, a part-time, stocking shelves, just to make a bit of money, because when we all go freelance, we're not necessarily stacked with clients. And every time I thought, 'right, I really need to sign up to an agency now.'

[00:14:03.440] - Matt Drzymała

Every time I did that, I got another job and another job. And I was like, 'it's obviously something keeping me from going back', having to make money elsewhere. So I feel like, whether it was luck or if it's just meant to be, it's like every time I felt, 'oh, I don't know how much longer I can go without work', another job would come in. And that was back in the day when on LinkedIn, you could literally go on LinkedIn and go, 'I've just finished the project. I've got time to take work on'. And someone would just bang, send it you. Whereas now, I mean, it's-

[00:14:34.670] - Lucy Critchley

It's a different level now, isn't it?

[00:14:36.700] - Matt Drzymała

It's a different level.

[00:14:38.210] - Lucy Critchley

But I mean-

[00:14:39.410] - Matt Drzymała

That would never work these days.

[00:14:40.640] - Lucy Critchley

You do so much... Well, this is a slight departure, but I feel like you do so much stuff on LinkedIn. You're prolific. I mean this in such a positive way, but I open my app and there you are talking about pants or the Beano or something.

[00:15:00.870] - Matt Drzymała

Well, I really have had to scale that back because I was just posting nonsense at times. But I think the reason for that is a few years ago, before I rebranded, I just used to sit there and think, 'I don't know what to say'. I was very just rigid and like 'I don't know what to say'.

[00:15:19.320] - Matt Drzymała

And it was once I rebranded, which obviously we'll speak about soon, I'm sure, I'd just decided to be me, it just became a lot easier, completely. And then I was just I didn't care what I was posting as long as I was enjoying it.

[00:15:33.460] - Matt Drzymała

But I have cut back because I was just starting to post multiple times a day and I thought, 'This is just gone a bit bonkers'. And I got work to do and I'm thinking what I'm going to post on there today. You will find that now I've got that much stuff, I will just redo it and repost it two months later.

[00:15:50.210] - Lucy Critchley

Oh, yeah, you've got to. I do. I think you got to. Only you see it as much as... The most.

[00:15:56.560] - Matt Drzymała

Most people see mine just all down the feed.

[00:16:00.250] - Lucy Critchley

I see yours the most.

[00:16:04.750] - Matt Drzymała

I'm like a dribble away down a leg, just all down. All down. Just me everywhere.

[00:16:10.330] - Lucy Critchley

All day. I just think, even though you say it like though, but the content that you post, you've thought it out. The way that you've really thought about the way that you talk about certain brands and what they could do better, that's work in itself. That's not just like, 'Oh, what have I had for lunch today? Or, This is what my lunch can tell me about running a business'. All those like...

[00:16:32.460] - Matt Drzymała

I think the thing for me with LinkedIn was that a few months ago, I was chatting with a couple of coaches. I did a couple of free calls with some coaches, and they made me think again about what I was doing because I thought, a lot of people are going on LinkedIn and post, 'Oh, I don't get any work from LinkedIn'. It's like, 'Well, what are you posting? Who do you follow?' And I looked at mine and thought, I'm not getting any work from it, but what am I doing? I'm just adding freelancers and copywriters, which is fine. I'm not literally adding anyone that can make a decision at a company that will work with me.

[00:17:07.020] - Matt Drzymała

And that's literally all I do now. I do still add freelancers and stuff. But now I will literally just go and look for people who can make a decision with a company and just add them and just connect with all of them. Managing Directors, anything that might be. Anyone that can make a decision that can work with a copywriter, I'll add them.

[00:17:26.330] - Matt Drzymała

I'm trying to create a, literally, a feed now just people that will work with me and not thinking so much about like, 'Right, I want loads of freelancers and copywriters', because I'm sat there thinking, 'This is great'. And some will pass work on to me and I will pass work on to them. But I think with a lot of us, as we've seen lately in freelancing, there's been a big downturn in work. And I'm finding there's not as many writers or I've not been able to pass work onto people and they've not been able to pass it to me.

[00:17:56.200] - Matt Drzymała

So it's really just now, I just need to concentrate on myself, but trying to make it, my posts fun for people that I want to work with. I want to work with fun brands as I've mentioned.

[00:18:09.320] - Lucy Critchley

That's it. And that's aligned with your values of your business, isn't it?

[00:18:13.460] - Matt Drzymała

Yeah, but I just think when you're doing something like that, if you're just filling it full of people that are just going to like your stuff and you want 500 reactions and views and stuff, and you're like, That's great, but isn't getting you any work.

[00:18:24.770] - Matt Drzymała

If you're not getting any work, then it's great going on and going, 'Oh, wow, that poster's got 57 reactions in two minutes', but mine is nine, 12 reactions. But I'm not bothered. I'm not looking for a poster to go viral because most of the stuff like that has got nothing to do with work. And I do still do silly stuff, but singing bloody smiley faces about McCain's smiley faces and doing my own weird Olympics in the house, throwing teabags into tea cups.

[00:18:59.010] - Lucy Critchley

I love those.

[00:18:59.840] - Matt Drzymała

Oh so did I

[00:19:02.810] - Lucy Critchley

I loved those and I loved Homes Under the Hammer

[00:19:04.190] - Matt Drzymała

Yeah, but I'm trying to just focus a bit more on just being helpful to people that might want to work with me for now. But yeah, that's where I've moved from now. Has been thinking by my mental health issues, which I don't know if you want me to go into a bit more detail about that.

[00:19:21.290] - Lucy Critchley

If you're happy to, I don't want to push you into things you don't want to say, but-

[00:19:24.990] - Matt Drzymała

That's fine.

[00:19:25.540] - Lucy Critchley

If you're happy to share, I would love to hear more.

[00:19:28.260] - Matt Drzymała

In 2022, I had a mental health breakdown completely. I was having panic attacks, really horrific intrusive thoughts. Yeah, I could barely function. I couldn't work for more than an hour a day. It really started when I noticed that I was struggling on a project for a client. Funnily enough, one of my mental health clients that I worked with at the time. Before my main breakdown, I went for a day where I couldn't read, which was just weird.

[00:19:57.770] - Matt Drzymała

I was reading stuff. I was like, 'This It doesn't make any sense'. And then I was trying to muddle along, trying to get this client work done. And I'd written it and I thought, 'yeah, that's fine'. I sent it off to my client and they sent it back like, 'Matt, what is this?'

[00:20:10.890] - Matt Drzymała

I'm like, 'what you've asked me to write? I've got written the homepage'. They're like, 'Can you read it again? Because it doesn't make any sense'. And I read it back and I was like, I don't remember writing any of that. It made no sense. It was just a load of gobbledygook. But it was weird. I mean, the brain's a weird thing. And I was like, 'okay'.

[00:20:28.410] - Matt Drzymała

And then literally like, a couple of weeks later, I was just sat on the couch and my wife was looking at holidays. We were looking to go to Vienna for our 40th and 50th joint birthday celebration. And my wife was looking at something and she literally just said, 'Oh, just look at this'. And I was just faffing about doing something. And I just went, 'I'll look in a minute'. And my brain, just a voice in my brain went, 'You don't care'.

[00:20:53.580] - Matt Drzymała

And that was it. From that second, I literally just went into full on, 100% panic, like that I couldn't... My brain just filled with all these weird, nasty thoughts. And the brain just goes, 'You don't care. You don't care about anything. You don't care about your marriage. You don't care about your wife. You don't care about anything'. Literally all the time.

[00:21:12.600] - Matt Drzymała

And for three weeks, every single night that my wife came home from work, all she got was just verbal diarrhoea from me, just nonstop panic, just sitting constantly in a panic mode on the couch. Just an endless stream for three or four hours nonstop. I was just wanted to sleep all the time. I couldn't get a straight thought in my mind, which is something I'd gone through when I was 18, when I had a breakdown in my teens. And I had got better, but it had taken six or seven years.

[00:21:43.780] - Matt Drzymała

I didn't think my therapist that time was essentially that good, to be honest, looking back now. But yeah, I literally just couldn't work. I think I'd done an hour a day for about a week, and then a few hours as it went on, but I just wasn't well enough to do it. So I went to therapy, and again, that was one of the biggest things I've ever done, one of the biggest life-changing things I've ever done was go to therapy. Some of the stuff that I was suppressing...

[00:22:11.120] - Matt Drzymała

It was weird because there was stuff that would annoy me. I found that even for years, I was angry all of the time for no reason. I'd be walking down, and not angry like I was a nasty person, but it's almost like you're walking down the road and someone's wearing something you don't like, and my brain would be 'Look at that, effing idiot, wearing that'. I'm literally was just angry for no reason. What does it matter? But my brain was just... So whenever it was in a car and someone... I'd just be angry at other drivers, even though I don't drive, which I suppose everyone does. Ridiculous. I was looking for something to be angry about. No reason. My therapist made me realise that, she said, 'every time you're living on such a level of anxiety and you've lived on it for so long, probably from when you had your original breakdown as an 18-year-old. As soon as you drop below that, your brain goes looking for a way to top it back up to be as angry or as anxious as you are', which I've noticed.

[00:23:11.020] - Matt Drzymała

Even with my family now, I see it in my family members. My mum's It's very much like that. She lives on a stress level. As soon as it drops down, she'll find something to be stressed about, no matter how silly it is.

[00:23:23.170] - Lucy Critchley

That feels exactly like my family. When you were explaining, I just thought they're just all about... Not all, but the majority of our conversations are dramatic. I think because I've had a lot of therapy, we've talked about this before haven't we? I've had loads, and I don't go anymore. But every now and again, I think, I probably should. Maybe it's time to just to revisit. Because there's stuff that happens and I definitely thought to myself, I probably would have reacted like this before. Or when I have these conversations with family members, I can see the way I would have been. Having had all those sessions, it has completely changed my life.

[00:24:08.000] - Matt Drzymała

Same.

[00:24:08.530] - Lucy Critchley

Completely.

[00:24:09.090] - Matt Drzymała

There was stuff that I would go to a session with like, 'Oh, this really bothers me'. I get to session and we'll be there. I was like, It's not actually that. My therapist's like 'this is not triggering you in any way'.

[00:24:19.420] - Matt Drzymała

And there was stuff that I wasn't telling her because I thought it doesn't really trigger me that much when I think about it, it doesn't bother me. But I would work through a lot of the stuff that I felt I was getting a react- I thought, I'm just going to throw this in.

[00:24:32.550] - Matt Drzymała

This is something that happened when I was working in a job 20 years ago. It was horrible what happened, but it doesn't really trigger me to think about... I tell you, that was the root of all my anger, and I didn't realise it.

[00:24:48.150] - Matt Drzymała

I just said to my therapist, I said, 'Faye, I'll speak about it, but I don't think it's that triggering'. And literally, I was screaming into cushions, I was punching cushions, throwing them on the ground. Just like, screaming. She's like, 'Go on Matt, go on, let it out'. And now all that anger that I had for no reason is just completely gone. I just don't have it anymore.

[00:25:10.630] - Lucy Critchley

I can't imagine you being...

[00:25:12.930] - Matt Drzymała

Yeah, I literally got it right.

[00:25:14.490] - Lucy Critchley

Good!

[00:25:14.660] - Matt Drzymała

It's just... I said it several times to my therapist because I'm still in touch with her, but I don't go anymore. Every now and again, I'll just thank her just for changing my life because there was stuff that I would say to her in session.

[00:25:28.930] - Matt Drzymała

I go, 'If you can get this out of me, there's no chance, because I've been like this for years. There's no chance you're going to get this way of thinking'. And she has, completely. I used to have a pain in my forehead that I'd been there for 20 years, just like heaviness. I can't stop thinking. My brain just feels like it's constantly thinking all of the time. It's just heavy on my forehead.

[00:25:50.800] - Matt Drzymała

It's gone. I can't believe that my brain would jump back to stuff that happened like 20, 25, 30 years ago. I'll be sat there on the couch and my brain will be there ticking over it and it's all completely gone. There's a few bits still there, but I work on it myself. I've taken everything that I learned from a therapist. I work on myself all the time.

[00:26:12.280] - Lucy Critchley

I think it helps you be more self-aware, doesn't it? You recognise the signs.

[00:26:16.300] - Matt Drzymała

Yeah, but I think how that then kind of turned into what I wanted to do. So I think I realised at that time, okay, when I came back to work a bit more, I was doing a bit more, unfortunately, I don't need to earn X, Y, and Z.

[00:26:31.460] - Matt Drzymała

I can get by as long as I'm earning this. If I can earn this amount, I don't need... Every time I see a post somewhere about a six-figure copywriter, I don't know if you allow swearing on this podcast.

[00:26:45.840] - Lucy Critchley

Oh, I do. Swear as much as you like.

[00:26:47.760] - Matt Drzymała

Yeah, I fucking hate it. Honestly, I just think, I'm a six-figure copyright and no one gives a shit. How much work would I have to do to be a six-figure copyright? It's just It's not possible. And whoever says that they're the freelancer working in the back bedroom of their house and they're making six figures are talking bollocks.

[00:27:07.150] - Lucy Critchley

It's shite. And it's the same in the social media content world. You see all this stuff, don't you? That's like, learn my workflows and processes for $27 or some nonsense like that. And you think this is how you're earning six figures because you're shilling people for $27. They're always $27, always.

[00:27:30.340] - Matt Drzymała

Exactly.

[00:27:31.220] - Lucy Critchley

It's rubbish.

[00:27:31.580] - Matt Drzymała

I mean, someone probably listened to this and go, 'Well, I'm a six-figure copywriter'. No, that's fine. How's that burnout going? Because if you've not got it now, you will do.

[00:27:46.460] - Lucy Critchley

You can't keep it up

[00:27:46.900] - Matt Drzymała

I'm sure there are people making a lot of money and that's fine, but I just... I don't want to do it. I don't want it to be in my life. I love being a copywriter, but it's not... It's almost destroyed me with my breakdown.

[00:27:57.870] - Matt Drzymała

I was doing too much at that point as well. So I couldn't see my breakdown coming because I was just too focused on all the work that I was doing and going, Yeah, I'm having four or five grand months. This is brilliant. I was like, 'I just don't want to do it'. I wasn't enjoying what I was doing.

[00:28:14.960] - Matt Drzymała

At that point, I decided, I need to do something different. I need to change the way I'm working. So it was probably a year after my breakdown that I got the work writing for the Beano.

[00:28:28.530] - Matt Drzymała

Just doing a daft post And that was literally one of the first real daft posts I did and I tagged them in it and they saw it and they worked with me. I was like, 'This is what I want to do'. This is what I'm... Looking back then all of a sudden it starts flitting into place. All the fan fiction I used to write was always funny or even the football reports I wrote were funny. I used to make up songs with my brother for that non-league football team, and they were always funny.

[00:28:53.740] - Matt Drzymała

Even when I look back at that creative writing course, yes, there were a lot of dark stories, but in the end, they ended up funny. I'm always writing funny stuff. Why am I not doing this as a job? That's when I thought, I need to completely reposition myself, but my website isn't right, my branding isn't right. So I spoke to Thomas Pawley, who's a freelancer that many you know and a lot of people listening to this will know. He did some amazing branding that just perfectly captured what I wanted to do. I thought I just need to go big on fun.

[00:29:27.540] - Matt Drzymała

And that's what I've done since. And I started October 2023. And it has taken a while, but SEO does. And obviously, with SEO courses I did with Nikki Pilkington, it really has. And literally, the last four or five months, I would say, I'm starting to really see now the fun work, people looking for a fun copywriter. And I'm seeing a lot more. I'm starting to get literally just jobs, people saying 'we want a fun tone of voice'. And yeah, I still get stuff that isn't, and that's fine. But it's now the exception more than the rule.

[00:30:01.420] - Matt Drzymała

And it was always the other way around. It was you doing this, that, and the other. And then you might get a nice little fun job. But now it's, I'm starting to see it. And people, I mentioned, I've seen you on LinkedIn and you really stand out. I found you on Pro Copywriters and yours is the one that stands out because yours is actually fun. That's what one client said to me, not a slagging off any other copywriters, that's what they said.

[00:30:22.870] - Matt Drzymała

They were literally looking for a copywriter and the only one that stood out was mine because it was different to everyone else. To be fair, I did explain to him because I want to do fun. Not everyone does. Some people want to be fintech, copyrighters or whatever. So you're not necessarily going to go, Woohoo. It depends what niche you're in.

[00:30:41.490] - Matt Drzymała

It is nice to start finding work now where I'm getting fun tones of voice. But I wouldn't be doing that if it wasn't for my breakdown, that realisation that once I started to go through therapy, that, 'Oh, this is what I want to do'. Would I have ever really noticed that? I think I would mention it, 'Oh, yeah, I want to write I love the fun stuff' but do nothing about it.

[00:31:01.950] - Matt Drzymała

Being safe, I can't go too fun. I can't say that I want this type of work because that's almost like a niche. I don't want to do that because I might not get work. Just that whole being scared to do something a bit different. And that's what we all told, do something different, it gets you noticed. And now I'm writing for all sorts of fun brands and well-known brands as well. It's like this would never have happened years ago, but it all happened with my breakdown and getting the Beano work, and it's grown from there. Now it's like, I can't believe some of the jobs that I'm getting. Now I'm writing like, Jurassic World toys' product descriptions, and signing an NDA with Universal Pictures. And as we speak, just landed a job writing for Hampton Court Palace because they want a silly copywriter to do some copy for them on an event happening later in 2025. And it's like, what?

[00:31:59.590] - Matt Drzymała

I'd never thought that would happen in a million years. When I got the Beano, that was just like bonkers. That was like a dream job. I thought, that'll probably be,... That will never happen again. And to be getting this work now, and I don't mean that to sound like big-headed, which is like, wow, they're looking for a fun copywriter.

[00:32:15.600] - Matt Drzymała

I think there's only me, really, that's at the moment, probably a million of us when they're into this, that does that fun brand copywriter and I'm very colourful in my imagery and stuff like that. But it shows it works If you get your SEO right and your marketing right, you will get seen.

[00:32:34.880] - Matt Drzymała

Those companies I've just mentioned are big brands. It's like, I'm sat there thinking, why the hell are they working with me? I'm just sitting in a spare room on my own. But it's all come from just working hard on my branding and going all in, not being scared for people to laugh at me or, like I say, doing those silly videos. If it wasn't for my breakdown, I just don't think I would have dared to do anything like that. It was all just very safe, safe, safe.

[00:33:01.200] - Matt Drzymała

But I'm a better person because of that breakdown. Now I've come through a lot of the stuff that was wrong and I'm just enjoying what I'm doing. And like you said before, if you're not doing something you enjoy, then what's the point?

[00:33:14.290] - Lucy Critchley

Exactly. I don't know if you did a lot of this in therapy, but we did a lot of inner child stuff.

[00:33:21.130] - Matt Drzymała

Yeah

[00:33:21.340] - Lucy Critchley

And I can only imagine, for me, there was so much... She made me, maybe this is a bit too personal, but she made me sit and have conversation with my inner child. Oh my God, it was so hard. It was one of the hardest things. And I remember sitting, she had this really small sofa and I was sat there, I used to always have a cushion for protection almost. Like, hug this cushion in my sessions. And I'm chatting to my inner child, and I found it so... It was such a difficult thing to do.

[00:33:55.430] - Lucy Critchley

But I feel like a lot of the things that we get to do now, that I get to do in my business, in my job, is stuff that I think I would have loved to have done sooner had I given myself that permission to do it and have a bit of fun at work. So I rebranded my business. I was a Virtual Assistant and I rebranded in 2022. And I had the stuff ready for ages, and I was almost too scared to put myself fully out there as the person that I want people to see me as more of who I actually am.

[00:34:30.160] - Lucy Critchley

And I think since doing it and since having that courage and the confidence to do it, things have totally changed with how I put myself out there. And if it wasn't for doing all that work on myself, I probably would be doing some work with clients that weren't the right fit and I wasn't really getting to-

[00:34:48.120] - Matt Drzymała

It's like wearing a mask, isn't it?

[00:34:49.270] - Lucy Critchley

Yeah.

[00:34:50.720] - Matt Drzymała

It's like, you just do it safe and what everyone else is doing. Whereas if you just actually go, 'Do you know what? I'm just going to do my own thing'. And like you said, I post a lot on LinkedIn. But I remember three, four years ago, getting up in the morning, thinking, I want to post this morning. And I'd be stood in the shower thinking, 'What do I write about?' And I just literally would procrastinate all day. And now I'm bloody everywhere.

[00:35:14.610] - Matt Drzymała

But that's purely come from just going, 'Do you know what? I don't care'. Actually, one copywriter who said something to me, and he was probably a copywriter everyone knows, Dave Harland. Just before COVID, I met up with him for lunch one day because he's the king of just doing bonkers stuff.

[00:35:29.830] - Matt Drzymała

I said to him, I said, 'How do you just put yourself out there and just say, 'This is what I do and this is what it is?' And he just said to me, 'Just do it. People will always say to me, 'You're wrong. That's not how you do it''. What he just said to me, 'I just do it and people follow it'. You get to the point where people just go, "Yeah, you're right'. And internally, you're thinking, 'Am I? Does that make sense?' Just own it. Just go out and say, 'This is how you write this'. And if you don't do it, it's the wrong way.

[00:36:03.070] - Matt Drzymała

And just have confidence in yourself. So yeah, Dave, big part of that change of maybe the initial one that had made me start thinking, but again, it took me the breakdown to really say it, but I did think back, I think, I remember Dave saying that to me, 'Don't worry what other people are going to say to you or troll you'. You can always just delete them and not interact with them.

[00:36:25.010] - Matt Drzymała

People are always going to disagree with you. Most of the time people won't, and they'll follow you and go, 'Yeah, your way is the right way'. And you might be worrying internally, just going, 'Aargh, I don't know whether I'm a fraud or not'. Just stick with it. That's what I do now.

[00:36:42.870] - Matt Drzymała

People might comment on my stuff and go, 'I don't think that's the right way to write copy in that way, or I don't think that's the right way to approach writing a subject, header on an email, or I don't think you should start a social media post'. But someone's always going to disagree because they're always going to have their own view on how to do something. But just believe that your way is right and people will believe you and follow you for it.

[00:37:06.620] - Lucy Critchley

Yeah, that's it. It builds that trust as well that you say... I know you've done like, I want to call them takedowns, but that's not what I mean. But you've suggested ways that companies that are aligned with you and your values could improve product descriptions or things like that. A lot of times they've reached out to you, haven't they? And you've had conversations, but it's never like 'This is the way'. It's like, 'oh, if it was up to me, this is how I would approach it'.

[00:37:35.080] - Matt Drzymała

Yeah, I do rewrites. So I just call it Rewrite It. Initially, when I first started doing them, I used to do a section on each one called What's wrong? And I thought, no, I'm going to take that out because it's not fair. They might have a copywriter who's written that.

[00:37:48.580] - Matt Drzymała

And I don't want to be the person who's going, 'No, this is all wrong'. So I've taken it out now, just going, Look, this is what it is now. This is what I would do, and this is what I did. This is It'll only be a bit like, Oh, the first, the opening line was a bit disjointed. The duplicated information is not really needed because I don't want another writer out there to go, 'That's my work'.

[00:38:12.020] - Matt Drzymała

Their way isn't necessarily the wrong way. It's just that if I was writing it, I'd make it a lot more fun. So I tend to look at brands that are fun, that have fun on social media or in adverts or in the marketing, but you go maybe on the product descriptions and they're very just bland. So I just try to make them a bit more fun, really. And I've had brands reach out and say, Yeah, we love what you've done, but unfortunately, due to one of them, I think, OddBalls said, 'Due to licensing agreements, we couldn't do what you've done'. And I was like, 'That's fine'. It's not a takedown of what you've done.

[00:38:47.020] - Matt Drzymała

It's just what I do. Then, another one, which is the one I can't mention, which is the big one that I got to work with. I did it for a brand, writing their product descriptions. So you might know who that is, Lucy, but I'm not allowed to mention it until May, officially. And then I did one for Wallace and Gromit, not long after the film came out. Someone passed on my details to someone who's got a contact at Aardman.

[00:39:09.490] - Matt Drzymała

I'm not sure that one's going to come off, but that will be a dream job writing for Aardman. But again, someone's noticed it and said, 'Here's your details'. So it's hard because you want to write it, but I'm just trying to show it that this is how I would do it. Your way isn't wrong, but you're a really fun brand everywhere else. But actually, your product descriptions are just very just plain.

[00:39:28.690] - Matt Drzymała

Yeah, this the fun that I would add. I've had good reactions. I'm sure at some point, some brands are going to just turn around and just go, 'Shut the fuck up'. But it's just a fun thing to do. I think when I'm especially quiet, if I've got a quiet day or two or a week I'll write one because I think, do you know what?

[00:39:47.290] - Matt Drzymała

I'm showing this brand how I would write for them. And the fact it's got me work shows it works. If it's a brand that I would actually like as well, then quids in. Well, not quid in. Got to get the job. But you know what I mean?

[00:39:59.240] - Matt Drzymała

That's probably the wrong word to use. It's a brand that I like, so they like it and they've got, yeah, let's just get this guy, and he understands us. Brilliant because they've got someone who likes their brand. And I've always said to people as well, yeah, someone could look for a copywriter, but why wouldn't they want to choose someone who actually completely gets them over someone who doesn't? And they can see that your body of work is good as well.

[00:40:27.690] - Matt Drzymała

Well, this guy, and that's what Beano did. They literally said, 'We've seen what you've done. That is perfect for what we want for this little series on social media that we want writing'. It was like, You completely get us. That's exactly the way you are, is exactly what we want for this project.

[00:40:43.540] - Matt Drzymała

You could say, 'Oh, that's just lucky, but right place, right time'. But everything is right place, right time. I used to worry as well. When people used to say, 'Oh, you've got to be in the right place at the right time'. But that's exactly what it is. And they might see you and then remember you six months down the line.

[00:41:00.900] - Matt Drzymała

If you land something that's really good that you want to do, it's not just luck. You're actually trying to get seen by these people and I don't think there's anything wrong with just showing them your style and what you can do. And all I can do is just ignore it.

[00:41:15.120] - Matt Drzymała

What's the worst? Maybe they could send a cease and desist. But I think as long as you're showing them look that I am actually doing this because I love what you do. I love your brand and I just want you to be even better. And this is how I could make it better.

[00:41:28.590] - Lucy Critchley

That's it. It's not like you're 'Oh, this isn't very good. And come to me because I'm so amazing'. It's like, I love-

[00:41:34.540] - Matt Drzymała

Which is what I was worried about at first. 'How do I write this post so I'm not telling them that it's rubbish'. And even if it is a bit rubbish, it's just I'm just going, 'Oh, this could be better because actually on social media, you're brilliant'. And the ads that I see on the internet are brilliant. And your TV advert is brilliant and your radio advert is brilliant. But actually, your product descriptions are completely different.

[00:41:58.820] - Matt Drzymała

And say you want that tone of voice and that style to be this consistent everywhere. So it's just picking out... I've just noticed this, that's all. And I would do this. So if you need a copywriter to make them better, I can do it for you. You don't have to go looking for anyone. I'm perfect. I've found it for you.

[00:42:16.660] - Matt Drzymała

That's some of that I've done recently. And again, it's found me work with a big well-known client and got me on the radar of a couple of others as well. So you never know where that will lead, but I found the line.

[00:42:28.830] - Lucy Critchley

Definitely. Definitely. When we're doing this podcast, we wrap things up with two final questions. The first one is, looking back at everything that you've experienced, everything that you've been through, what's the biggest thing that you've learned about yourself in this process?

[00:42:45.540] - Matt Drzymała

Probably some have already covered, just to be me. It took a massive breakdown and therapy and medication and loads of one-hour work days, and days where I literally thought, I'm never going to be able to write again.

[00:42:59.380] - Matt Drzymała

Through all therapy and clarity that I've gained from getting my mental health much better. Like I said at the beginning, it took me eight years to get a bit better. Last time, I was a teenager.

[00:43:11.960] - Matt Drzymała

We're talking next month, which would be March 2025 as we're recording this. It will be three years since my breakdown and I was fine this time last year. So it literally took me two years by working on myself so intently to get myself back to almost the real me that I felt I was when I was 18, someone that I liked, just to be me because there's nothing wrong with me. And I didn't like me for a long time. I would say a lot of the time I detest myself. And that's a It's a terrible thing to say about yourself, but I really would say those words, I detest myself. And if you're telling yourself that over and over, you're not going to like yourself.

[00:43:54.370] - Matt Drzymała

And now I'm just like, I am who I am. I like to do fun stuff. I like to write fun stuff. I feel like I'm a lot more confident just to be myself and be funny and just be daft and not worry about it and not worry that people are going, 'Why is he wearing a Button Moon t-shirt when he's 43?' But why are you wearing t-shirts that you probably should have stopped wearing 20 years ago. I think, You know what?

[00:44:17.380] - Matt Drzymała

These days, people are adults and buying Lego again, which is what I do as well. That's just being me. I found Lego, I do puzzles now, and I feel like me again. But I hadn't felt since I was a teenager. So I found myself. And I think I can say, 'Do I like myself?'

[00:44:39.970] - Matt Drzymała

Yeah, I know I'm a good person. I like myself. And even three years ago, I just could not. My wife would say me all the time, 'Stop saying that. Stop saying that you detest yourself'. And I just be like, 'Well I do. I don't like myself, who I am. I'm not a nice person'.

[00:44:56.910] - Matt Drzymała

And you just believe it. And that all is all borne out of trauma, unresolved trauma. My therapist would always say, and I don't know about yours, Luce, but mine would always say, but you reacted at that time with these tools that you had at your disposable. You didn't know how to react any other way to this really bad thing happening, whether it was a break up, whether it was a friend just saying something horrible to you, probably doing it for a laugh, but you taking it seriously because that's all you could do at the time.

[00:45:29.310] - Matt Drzymała

You don't have the hindsight of being 40-plus years old and being able to look back and go, 'That might have just been a joke, actually'. They might have just been having a bad day. Yeah, so that's the answer to that.

[00:45:41.910] - Lucy Critchley

There's so much more I could say, but I could totally relate to all of that stuff. A lot of mine was childhood things, and my therapist would say, 'But you don't forget you were a kid and you aren't supposed to know the answers'. The way that I suppose I was made you feel was like, I should have. I should have had the answers and I should have known these things.

[00:46:04.470] - Matt Drzymała

I remember the first session I had with the therapist went 'a lot of this will be childhood'. That was one of the first things she said to me. And I was like, 'No, no, no.'

[00:46:14.570] - Matt Drzymała

She was like, 'How was your childhood?' I was like, 'Oh, it was brilliant'. Oh, yeah. By week three, I'm coming in with a big fuck off list. Well, when I was seven, my mum said this and my brother did that.

[00:46:27.550] - Lucy Critchley

You know it all, don't you?

[00:46:29.220] - Matt Drzymała

The week one, I was like, 'Oh my God. No, not me'.

[00:46:32.240] - Lucy Critchley

I have such a wonderful childhood.

[00:46:33.720] - Matt Drzymała

My childhood was great, but it's just how you perceive things, like when you're one of four, literally as a child going, 'Oh, this brother or sister is a favourite, and I'm not as liked because you've got told off and you think that...' It wasn't you, but really it was. But you just decided it wasn't. It was your brother's.

[00:46:53.770] - Matt Drzymała

And it's that thing. My childhood was not bad in any way, but it's how you perceive things happening. And when you look back at it and you think, yeah. Mine was a lot of stuff from my childhood as well that I wasn't aware of because it happened when I was a baby.

[00:47:09.420] - Matt Drzymała

But even she said then it's like the bonding with your parents because one of my brothers was ill as a baby. We were only two years between us. So a lot of the time I wasn't with my parents because they were at the hospital. So I was left with aunts and grans and stuff like that. It's just stuff like that.

[00:47:29.630] - Matt Drzymała

It's like there's nothing wrong. I have a great relationship with my mum and dad. But it's literally like that is why you feel the disconnect because you didn't have this connection when you were eight months old. I was like, what? It's bonkers, isn't it?

[00:47:46.210] - Matt Drzymała

Isn't that mad? It can stem so far back, can't it? Those things.

[00:47:51.850] - Matt Drzymała

Oh, yeah. She took me right back to my birth. It was bonkers. I mean, that's just a whole another story. If someone wants to know about the birth story... I don't think we got time for that one.

[00:48:03.030] - Lucy Critchley

I'd love to know that one.

[00:48:05.440] - Matt Drzymała

I'll tell you one day. She took me right back to me being born. That's incredible. To cut a long story short, I could feel being pulled out of my mum because I was caesarean and I was breached. It was weird. I could feel my right leg being pulled.

[00:48:21.280] - Lucy Critchley

Yeah, Edie was, my daughter.

[00:48:22.190] - Matt Drzymała

It circled around my ankle. I was literally in therapy, just like my right leg was stretching away from me. I'm like, I don't know what's going on. I was in agony. I had pains in my side. And she's like, 'That's probably where he's trying to manoeuvre you around before they've got you out'.

[00:48:40.400] - Matt Drzymała

And it's probably the doctor putting his fingers in the side of you. It literally came from nowhere. And then I got shooting pain from my groin all the way down my leg to my ankle, and it wrapped around my ankle. And I just felt my leg being pulled. It was excruciating.

[00:48:55.430] - Matt Drzymała

And as soon as we stopped doing it, it disappeared. I've never felt anything like that ever because your body remembers. And I've had friends go, 'Oh, that's rubbish'. But your body remembers trauma, even from birth.

[00:49:10.500] - Matt Drzymała

And that's cutting it short and she wasn't even getting me to picture that I was being pulled out by my feet. It just happened and it was just one leg and it stopped at the ankle. So that'll be where the doctor is pulling you out by your right leg.

[00:49:28.370] - Matt Drzymała

Then I came out feet first. I thought, I'm not sure everyone needed to know that, but you can always cut it.

[00:49:34.340] - Lucy Critchley

I won't be cutting that. Well, I mean, I don't edit it anyway. I did the time.

[00:49:39.690] - Matt Drzymała

No, not at all. Very weird, yeah.

[00:49:42.300] - Lucy Critchley

But my final question is, if you met someone that was where you were when things were really bad, what advice would you give them?

[00:49:51.920] - Matt Drzymała

Mental health-wise or work-wise?

[00:49:53.850] - Lucy Critchley

Whatever you feel comfortable with. I imagine, though, mental health-wise, Maybe I don't want to put words in your mouth, but mental health-wise, it's quite hard to give people advice when you're in the thick of it.

[00:50:05.540] - Matt Drzymała

I think mental health-wise, I say to a lot of people, and no one ever listens: go to therapy. It will change everything, you've been as well. It changes everything. It just gets out so much stuff. It is hard, but it gets out so much trauma that you don't even know you've got.

[00:50:26.170] - Matt Drzymała

All those little things that you have in your life where you're just angry for no reason, You just have that thought back to your mate saying something to you when you were 15 years old, because we all know that teenagers are not nasty anyway.

[00:50:40.970] - Matt Drzymała

But I had stuff like that. Someone has said when I was 15, still in my head when I was 40, and it got it out. Everyone's different. Everyone's going to heal at different rates, and different therapies are going to work for different people.

[00:50:55.900] - Matt Drzymała

But I think if you can get a lot of that trauma out, you start to see the person that you really are without all of that trauma. And it takes time because your brain fights against it and says, 'who are we without this trauma?'

[00:51:10.050] - Matt Drzymała

Who am I without this anger or these horrible thoughts that I have thinking back to something that happened when I was at school. Who am I without that? But actually, when you take all that away, you realise that you're a much better person and a much happier person. I can't recommend therapy enough.

[00:51:27.490] - Matt Drzymała

I was never suicidal or anything, but that doesn't mean it wasn't life-changing. It didn't save my life because it did. It could have wrecked everything. It could have wrecked my job. It could have wrecked my marriage, my relationships with my family. But it's made it stronger. I'm no longer that person that I was for so long and I'm just so much better. My wife says to me all the time, 'You're just not the same person that you were'.

[00:51:51.290] - Matt Drzymała

She still said, 'You still rant a little bit, have a little bit of a moan'. But she says it's funny now. It's not angry for no reason. You're literally just having a rant, but it's done with a bit of humour. You couldn't tell whether I meant it or not when I was really angry. Now she's like, I know you're just doing it for laughs. You're doing it to make her laugh or whatever, just having to rant about someone on the TV wearing a silly hat or something.

[00:52:20.050] - Matt Drzymała

But in terms of freelancing, you feel stuck in what you're doing, whether it doesn't matter whether you're a writer or a designer, whatever it is you do, just believe in yourself, believe that what you want to do will work. And if you put the work, if you start working on all your content, your SEO pages, creating landing pages for certain key phrases, start posting stuff that you want to post about on social media, put a little bit of an edge to it where you're being helpful for clients because at the end of the day, they're the ones that are going to work with you.

[00:52:55.540] - Matt Drzymała

Yes, your peers will pass you work. I'll recommend you, which is great, but really, just try and just be yourself, but be useful to someone reading your stuff. It will take time, but you will start getting that work and you will start getting known. I wasn't known as a fun brand copywriter three years ago. I don't think anyone really knew what I was because I didn't really know myself. I was just a generalist.

[00:53:20.330] - Matt Drzymała

And I still am to an extent, but I'm seeing the change in the work that's coming in now, and hopefully, maybe in another 12 months, that's literally all I'm doing.

[00:53:29.210] - Matt Drzymała

I'm not getting any of the stuff I don't want to do. But, yeah, just believe in yourself and just do it. I was in that position a few years ago when it took a silly post tagging the Beano and it literally changed completely the way I looked at what I was doing and what I wanted to do and made me realise that I should have been doing this from day one.

[00:53:48.790] - Lucy Critchley

Oh, that's amazing, Matt. Thank you.

[00:53:51.850] - Matt Drzymała

Thank you.

[00:53:52.650] - Lucy Critchley

Thank you for sharing so openly and for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it.

[00:54:00.690] - Lucy Critchley

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Untold Chapters. I really hope you enjoyed it and found something that resonates with your own story. If you enjoyed this episode, please don't forget to rate, review, and follow us wherever you get your podcasts. Your support will help us share even more incredible stories. Untold Chapters is an Untold Creative production. Until next time…